two kinds of men

Discussion in 'Real Life Experiences' started by sproggo, Jul 13, 2016.

  1. sproggo

    sproggo Guest

    Many women seem to be attracted to two very different kinds of men. Call them betas and alphas, dads and cads, nice guys and bad boys. I've known women who go in for serial monogamy, choosing one kind of guy but later regretting it and ending the relationship before choosing the other kind. And when that goes wrong, they swap back again the next time round. Others try to find a guy who combines elements of both - with more or less success. But as cuckold relationships become better known, I think many women will discover that they can have both kinds of men at the same time. I read some research which found that women often prefer more gentle 'nice guys' when they are not fertile, but their preference changes around the time of ovulation. As my wife told me once, 'Some men are for making babies, others are for raising them'. I was obviously the latter kind. But, for me, the most difficult issue was accepting that our friends and colleagues (and some family) knew that I was happily raising another man's child. My wife's aunt, who she was very close to, was not at all surprised, though. My wife had already told her that I was being 'broken in' by regular cuckolding, and I would make a wonderful nanny when the time came.
     
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  2. michael1987

    michael1987 Well-Known Member

    Most of us are aware of the two cut-and-dried so-called behavioural categories---Alpha and Beta---one or other of which we men are supposed to fall into and label ourselves with. But almost all of the so-called science on these supposed categories amounts to no more that a hill of beans of pop Psycholgy. Very careful and internationally multi-center peer-reviewed expert andrological, endocrinological and rigorous psychological research utterly disproves it. As does the medical, sexological and personal sexual and relationship experience of scores of highly-ranked medical academic colleagues of mine worldwide, and the researchings of prestigious human development scientists, sociologists, and social and physical anthropological researchers of international standing. The behaviour of individual men and women in the areas of inter-gender romantic attachment, sexual behaviour, mate-selection, male sexual territorialism, procreation, child-rearing and in particular the nuturing of their offspring, is subject to constant lateral mobility in individual men and women at different developmental stages and times in their sexual lives, depending on a whole raft of varying social and sexual circumstances,mixed together with myriad societally imposed nonsensical prescriptions and ridiculous dogmas of every irrational and dehumanising kind. Witness the dramatic changes towards responsible woman and child nuturing that occur in the emotions and behaviours of the most macho and so-called alpha men whose women become pregnant by them. Of course there will always be the cynical sexually exploitative, opportunistic and irresponsible males who predate on silly women to pump up their arrogant misdirected male egos by callously impregnating them before moving on to their next willing victim. But let us not foolishly champion such men or grace them with the name "Alpha Males" as if the next category "downwards" of the remainder of us is Beta, and the bottom one Omega, all of them being supposedly less sexually desirable to ovulating women than so-called Alphas. The concept is scientifically proveably fatuous.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
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  3. don_jetman

    don_jetman Well-Known Member Founding Member

    Sometimes I think there's something to Jungian archetypes. I'm not a mystic, but certainly there is some genetic influence at birth - twins with like personalities, siblings with opposite dispositions. But I think maturity is the great leveler.

    To avoid misogynist stereotyping, neither men nor women are immune to the consequences of nature and nurture. But in my past relationships with women, I've seen a correlation between times of heightened libido and the attraction to what we call alpha-males. Even now my own wife is no exception. While I was surprised to discover my innocent wife's past relationships with a few "bad boys" in her younger days, she continues to ignore her usual preference of a man she has "chemistry" with when she's out-of-control horny. She never goes to bars, but not long ago she stopped at a nearby neighborhood restaurant/lounge after work and fucked the bartender in the back room while he was on duty. She had been ravenous for days, but I never saw that coming.

    In my younger days, in another life, as a strip club junkie, after a dry spell, there were nights when I risked sex with girls in VIP rooms, and even woke up beside my share of them in bed the next morning. Not something I'd normally do, considering the risk of arrest and disease. These were "bad girls" - not my type at all. Girls with tats and piercings, who walked thorough the clubs naked and nasty, their hands down the front of guys' pants all night long. Girls who rode tens of guys in the VIP that night, girls who sucked them, and maybe even had sex with them. Raging need made me do ragingly risky things. With very bad girls.

    These days L and I look back at this behavior with a bit of embarrassment, if not regret. Maturity brings lessons of consequence, and memories of the lessons are more clear and long lasting. Superego rides higher above the id. But there are still times, when the urges are so overwhelming and intense, that a "bad boy" (or girl) is the only way back to earth.

    Don
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
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  4. Hawke82

    Hawke82 Guest

    I have to agree with Michael. I lot of men that are into cuckolding are totally Alpha in their careers, when playing sports, etc. but choose to play a beta role in the bedroom. It often takes a very secure man to give up control like that. On the other side of the coin, a lot of so called "bad boys" are just that, boys that never grew up, and are compensating for their own insecurities. My wife has always said "Watch out for the quiet types, sometimes they are the biggest surprise in bed!" The same can be said in the other direction, because many of the the brash ones, turn out to be real duds in bed! For every real Bull type male, there are probably as many (or more) self proclaimed Alpha/Bull types, that are just immature punks and losers. Let's face it, some women are just attracted to assholes! Thankfully, most women aren't, and learn to avoid the "I'll fuck yur woman real gud!" types, that seem to think a sending dick pic is all it takes to get a Hotwife to spread her legs!
     
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  5. michael1987

    michael1987 Well-Known Member

    Thank you for that wide-ranging exploratory piece, Don. It demonstrates very well the problems that the past and present rigid, confusing and largely insupportable and useless characterisings and attempted classifyings of universally multiform human sexual behaviours can cause, ironically and especially for sincerely seeking academics such as you and I. To whit, when I was 16---one year before going university then to medical school---I purchased, volume by volume (at huge expense), and repeatedly read--from cover to cover--every work of Carl Jung that had been translated into English. I was of course--because of the world-wide vogue for Bhuddism and eastern esoteric religions in general as cures for almost every ill---particularly taken by his opus magnus "Symbols and Transformations". As you will know Don, Jung himself admitted that his analyses and attempted syntheses across the board gave rise to no therapeutically useful applications or treatments; which was of no consequence to his often similarly intellectual big-paying private patients who were happy to discuss with him, twice or three times weekly year after year, decade after decade, the problems of seeing the Light and entering Nirvana and the inevitable frustrations of not achieving either great Goal. Over the two years before that I had already repeatedly read (beginning with "An Introduction to Psychoanalysis", "The Ego and the Id" and "The Interpretation of Dreams") every one of Freud's translated works, and every major work of Kraft Ebbing, Charcot, Eugene Bleuler (including "Dementia Praecox), Neuman, Adler, Anna Freud, Ernest Jones, B F Skinner, Erich Fromm, R D Laing, Moreno, Eric Berne and Erik H Erikksen, Piaget, Claude Levi-Strauss, Margaret Mead, Bruno Bettelheim, and assorted other recognised innovators in psychology, sociology, psychiatry, neuropsychiatry, and anthropology. My studies in Medicine, including Psychiatry, confirmed the uselessness and frank dangers of categorising and pigeon-holeing human beings according to their outward behaviours and mental pursuits including self and imposed sexual identification, psychological typing , other self-labellings and, last but not least, dreaming and fantasising and the attempted analyses of those in the pursuit of hallowed Personal Growth. So how does this pertain to the topic of this thread, which is "Two Types of Men"? Well, in my opinion, the answer to the question could well come from considering the mental mayhem for some of us, on the one hand, and the potential gain in therapeutic insight for others of us, on the other hand, that could have resulted from its having been more assertively titled "THE Two Types of Men" or, more humbly, "Are There Two Types of Men?" I admit it could be an anxiety-provoking leap into the Dark, or perhaps into the Light, for many of us to even think about that, but there's no harm in trying, as in the best of faith I have done here. In that attempt I hope I have managed to avoid the dreaded "Misogynist Stereotyping" of anybody----or by anybody---and the only slightly less offensive misanthropist equivalent.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
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  6. don_jetman

    don_jetman Well-Known Member Founding Member

    Thanks for your reply, Michael. It emphasizes the need for introspection and ongoing personal analysis. Are we the entity we're told we are - who we come to believe we are, and to what degree is that entity in our power to control or change? Is it my own image of myself as an alpha or beta male that makes me so, the result of cultural and family influence, or is it at least partially (or fully?) predetermined? Or are some wired to be especially susceptible to influence and suggestion, moving us in whatever direction the winds of our environment blow?

    Beyond that, do we find solace, and even pleasure, in a feedback loop that rewards us for accepting who and what we're supposed to be? There is greater pleasure in embracing that which gives us pleasure. When I "play" the beta male, when I watch L taken by a large, strong man, and see the pleasure she gets from it, it strikes a sharp submissive resonance which fuels the fantasy and convinces me that, even if just for a while, that I am a "beta" male. I would imagine an "alpha" male feels a resonant elation as well during the act, and to him, for that time, he IS an alpha. But without careful introspection when we return to earth, can the experiences be additive? Can we allow them to magnify and enhance how we see ourselves to the point of becoming the fantasy figure? I suspect so.

    I've been chasing these questions for many years. Time-frames, triggers, exposure to early sexual symbolism, and my parents' family dynamics - one can force the pieces to fit, but the puzzle is never quite right, never quite complete. The missing piece of logic or final elusive data points may be genetic. Most likely my lay understanding of psychology/psychiatry only takes me so far. I'm a scientist, a chemist, with only a long-past minor in psych. Jung, Freud, and Adler made lasting impressions and were the most inviting "mentors" to my introduction to human psychology, as meager as it was. Actually, L is better qualified, with graduate degrees in psychology and counseling. Introspection is one thing, but deeper psychoanalytic analysis of one's self by one's self has proven to be less than useful to L, as I suspect would be the case for anyone. My philosophy leans to Adler/Nietzsche, and hers to Maslow, positions that have been both frustrating and enlightening to us both when discussions go to gut level. But it's never dull.

    Don
     
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  7. michael1987

    michael1987 Well-Known Member

    Your description of the "quite type" fits me like a glove, Hawke. It is nearly always the husbands that mis-read me as being a back-room(!) academic, gay and sexually non-threatening non-entity. Their sexually needy wives, on the other hand, usually succeed in reading me like a book without me being the least bit pushy, cleverly quasi-dominant or seductive. After my quiet and nearly always surprisingly easy coital conquests, a consenting cucked husband will sometimes jibe me with comments such as "You must be a hot cock man--wouldn't know to look at you" and "Bit of a dark horse aren't you mate?"and "You quiet types always get the lion's share" None of which I have ever felt or believed I am. Rather Omega of me, isn't it.
     
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  8. michael1987

    michael1987 Well-Known Member

    Not much more one can say, is there Don, without destroying our professionally unpopular theses. Thank you for mentioning Abraham Maslow. Early on in my studies, while still a troubled teenager vainly attempting to refuse and deny my blessing of bisexuality, I was very respectful of his ethics, theses and therapeutic rationales, and greatly helped by him. Also by WilhemReich, Alexander Lowen, Feldenkrais, Judith Binetter (trained by Neuman and Feldenkrais)--whose patient I briefly was--and Thomas Szasz, all of them very great minds and thinkers and hugely compassionate people who undoubtedly influenced my philosophical, psychological and professional development and creative acceptance of my ambisexuality much more than I can see, much less ever fully understand.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  9. don_jetman

    don_jetman Well-Known Member Founding Member

    This may be all about semantics. To me, describing someone as alpha or beta is about behavior, response, and perceptions. Much of the time I don't think of myself as either alpha or beta. I'm the quiet type, but never consider myself a wimp. When L and I meet a guy who is especially forward, maybe bordering on narcissistic, and he flirts with her, his behavior is alpha-like to me, and my response is often to feel rivalry. Conceding that I'm not his type, that I don't have his off-the-cuff seduction skills or predatory instinct, I acknowledge and accept I'm the beta (less prone to overt confrontation) in this situation, especially if L shows his attention is welcome. Although I have quiet confidence that the situation isn't dangerous to our relationship, an onlooker may see it very differently, labeling me a beta individual (wimp) rather than recognizing merely an instance of beta behavior.

    Personally, I don't consider the alpha male (in a sexual sense) necessarily a rude, brutish ass. He's a confident, extroverted, sometimes shameless pursuer of women - even married ones. He's an uninhibited risk-taker, but not necessarily an inconsiderate one. L loves this kind of attention, especially if there's chemistry between them. Boldness, confidence, and sincerity describe the best of them. But yes, the darker side, the whiff of danger and taboo can be exciting to women as well. Behavior that goes off the scale, not just rudeness, but intentional emotional or physical damage, may be "alpha" in someone's extreme fantasies, but aren't at all included in my definition.

    To L, a "bad boy" goes a step further - a risk-taker, mostly a much younger one, whose uninhibited behavior is well beyond what she normally considers appropriate: the young bartender who risks embarrassment and his job to fuck her in a nearby stockroom within yards of a bar full of customers - the trainer/bodybuilder at our gym who isn't afraid to play the Dom to her submissive fantasies with me tied to a chair at the foot of the bed - her long-time lover's young, bearded nephew whose S&M fetish went up to and beyond boundaries of anal sex and bondage she was at first willing to accept. There is an edginess to this bearded nephew that both scares and attracts her still, but whether his recent rudeness in the company of others will allow her to be "owned" by him again remains to be seen. It's a fine line, at least for us. Libido vs. risk. And semantics.

    Don
     
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  10. michael1987

    michael1987 Well-Known Member

    Aahh, Don. With that piece--which I opine is bang-on--you confirm my suspicion; that you have also read and admire one of America's very greatest writers, E.B.White. I joined the Club about 10 years ago after reading those wonderfully formative works "Charlotte's Web" and "Is Sex Necessary"; the latter co-authored with his close friend and "The New Yorker" colleague, James Thurber. Keep up the great work!
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
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  11. michael1987

    michael1987 Well-Known Member

    By the way, were you trained at Cornell too?
     
  12. don_jetman

    don_jetman Well-Known Member Founding Member

    No, I've not read White, except for the Strunk & White writer's bible, which goes with me everywhere, ever since college. It came into use again when I started writing adult fiction on Usenet's alt.sex.stories 15 years ago. Good times with great people.

    Not Cornell, but in the northeast. I spent a summer and vacations with a girl I was dating at Amherst where I took lit and writing courses in my spare time. Fleshed out my inner geek somewhat, but it still remains.

    Don
     
  13. michael1987

    michael1987 Well-Known Member

    So you probably have read the brilliant last chapter, on essay-writing, by White in the later editions of "The Elements of Style" that he edited. I committed the whole work to memory years ago. I had to, because I was forever giving away my travel copy---together with his seminal work "Is Sex Necessary"---to budding young writers and mostly male lovers who were having trouble expressing themselves, including even romantically would you believe.
     
  14. saturn

    saturn Super Moderator Staff Member

    Don, did you happen to write a series of stories entitled something along the lines of "L's first time", "L's second time" and so on?
     
  15. small9

    small9 Active Member

    I'm a beta male through and through. I'm submissive out of and in the bedroom.
     
  16. don_jetman

    don_jetman Well-Known Member Founding Member

    Not exactly - I have posted a two-part here, I think called Beginnings 1 & 2. Back then I was better known for Surrendering Sarah, Persephone in Winter, and The Visitors (all still at ASSTR), among a few others.
     
  17. michael1987

    michael1987 Well-Known Member

    I haven't read any of those, but thanks for that heads-up Don. For reasons you will no doubt understand, for me the most gripping piece of erotic writing out there is Marco Vassi's psychologically and literally perfectly-crafted classic short story "The Conscientious Cuckold". Vassi's control of timing and rhythm in describing the progression of the action all the harrowing way through to the cataclysmic orgasm---which I won't spoil by describing for you, Saturn---is perfectly masterly. As I for one and certain others would expect from a genius-level free-thinking and utterly unabashed fellow bisexual. But, obviously, I felt the work very personally, and for that reason it struck a multitude of beautifully visceral erotic chords in me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
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  18. don_jetman

    don_jetman Well-Known Member Founding Member

    I've heard of The Conscientious Cuckold but haven't read it. I'll have to do that. Of my stuff, Persephone is a later work I'm most proud of. My writing matured somewhat by that time, and it's less extreme, more sophisticated than my older work.

    My fiction writing on Usenet was sublimation for my then secret cuckold/wife-sharing fantasies, long before I confessed them to L. The early stuff, Visitors, and Sarah, was pretty brutal. Years of pent-up fantasies came to the surface and boiled over during that time. But readers loved that shit. The only non-fiction piece was Two Blocks From the Edge, about my dark relationship with the stripper with a heart of gold. Sigh...

    Don
     
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  19. michael1987

    michael1987 Well-Known Member

    The CC is the only short story of Vassi's I have come across. It is acknowleged as a masterpiece of arguably the greatest erotic writer of the 20th Century. For me, not even the blatantly misogynistic Henry Miller comes close. But for the woman's perspective on open relationships, Anais Nin definitely rules. Of the present-day literary eroticists, I rank Christine Leov Leland far above every other. Her novel "AVOCADO" (pub. Penguin, 2000) describes an intensely heterosexual relationship--between the two young main characters Stu and Dawn--from their separate points of view, to my mind more beautifully than Vassi ever did, even in his very hard-to-get masterpiece "The Gentle [sic] Degenerates". In "Avocado" you may realistically read "Michael" for "Stu", if you so desire. Such were my erotically mind-blowing long-haired hippie days downunder.
     
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  20. T_toy8

    T_toy8 New Member

    Soo much interesting philosophy in this thread, Personally I see all the time beta males that think their alpha male’s only to be puppets to real alpha male’s, part of a bulls art can be to think beta’s are alpha’s, hell maybe I’m not an Alpha male but at least I get to make sweet love to all your wife’s
     
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