Advice to a total newbie

Discussion in 'Methods, Techniques and Advice' started by nobody, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. Worth It

    Worth It Well-Known Member

    An appropriate gesture would be to write a check, perhaps several, made out to Tom for his services, and give it to your wife for her to fill in and give to him.
    don_jetman likes this.
  2. Worth It

    Worth It Well-Known Member

    For me, the feeling that Audrey and her lovers have for each other isn't erotic, it is comforting. I prefer she is having sex with men who care for her and don't consider her just a cum dump. Lovers, I am happy for her. If she was doing one off bar pickups, that would bother me.
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  3. Pathedick

    Pathedick Well-Known Member Founding Member

    I disagree with your description of your post being about "Nothing in particular". It's about you both developing your unique relationship, your unique cuckold relationship.
    A development that she is Naturally controlling, guiding as she is feeling her way into it. She solicited your input during that lovemaking session which she accepted but modified it to fit her needs as she currently sees them, by stating that she wouldn't be open to sharing the encounter with Tom , at least not completely.
    That too may change over time but for now progress has happened and it sounds like you Both enjoyed a Pleasurable lovemaking because of it.

    So good update. Continued Patience and Communication will produce further developments. Hopefully equally Pleasurable or more.
    don_jetman, tiruh811 and Worth It like this.
  4. nobody

    nobody Member

    Thanks PD. So, some movement.

    F and I were talking in bed last night and she started by saying how much she enjoyed our lovemaking the previous evening. The subject of Tom came up, and she said explained her reticence in contacting him as “not wanting to tease myself”. We were just cuddling and kissing and her tone was quite playful. She seemed like she wanted to be persuaded.

    I just said words to the effect that I thought the whole idea is really erotic. She was quite for a bit and then prodded my belly and said “it’s you who needs to work out” it’s true, I have put about 15kg on over the last couple of years).

    She rolled over So that I could spoon her and I said, what about tying her training sessions with atom to me losing weight. I suggested that for every 3kg I lose, F might have a session with Tom.

    She rolled over and kissed me and just said “Ok”. Her matter of fact-ness about it surprised me a bit.

    We kissed for several minutes and I joked “is this really my idea, or your idea that I just think is my idea?”. F giggled and said “it’s a win-win for me, I get a buff husband and I get to hang out with a guy I really like”.

    So, that’s where we are. We are on - if I can shed the pounds.

    Before we fell asleep F said she really liked the idea as “it’s a test of whether you are really serious about this or not”. F and I have a date with the scales before work this morning.

    Working out will be a lot more fun with the thought that it is in the service of her meeting up with Tom.

    Obviously all of this is pure conjecture on my part. Tom might have a girlfriend, he may not be interested, F May get cold feet etc,. But even so it is great fun and seems to be bringing F and I closer together, and she seems to be opening up to new possibilities.
    don_jetman, tiruh811 and Worth It like this.
  5. nobody

    nobody Member

    Another update.

    Last Thursday, and completely out of the blue, my wife and I had the worst argument of our married lives.

    The circumstances of the argument are trivial; I was working from home, my wife collected our child from school after finishing work, she got home and I wasn’t preparing dinner as she had expected (in mitigation I thought she was going to buy him dinner out and she didn’t text me). Anyway the reaction was out of all proportion to the “crime” and she really unloaded on me and i defensively reacted, which made it 10x worse. At one point she said she was moving out. I scoffed and said “where too” and she replied “don’t worry, I have plans that you don’t know anything about”.

    The argument ended after about 20 minutes and later that evening she seemed very calm and relaxed with our child, but things were extremely cool between us, and Inslept on the couch.

    I made big efforts to make things up over the weekend, despite the fact that I don't feel I said or did anything wrong. Last night she was reading in bed in her dressing gown and I went in to make up.

    We were both calm, and I started by saying that I didn’t think the row was really about dinner not being ready in time, that it was about more broadly about her frustrations with me.

    She didn’t directly agree but said that she wants to change her priority - to focus on her career (she has recently gone back to work), becoming more financially independent and not focusing on “us” so much. I agreed with all of those as being good things - she is really blossoming since she has returned to work after being a stay-at-home mum.

    She then talked about how she loves me and wants the best for me but that she can’t say we will always be together and has been thinking about other plans, and that she needed to be more independent.

    I was amazed. I asked her if she had met someone else and she sort of waived that away. She doesn’t want a separation, she loves me (and I her), but feels that I take her for granted, and often cold, don’t treat her with the respect I should and don’t model to our child what it is to be a good husband.

    I told her that I was truly sorry that we had reached such a place and that I had disappointed her so much - without even realising it. I assured her that I love her to bits, and didn’t want to lose her. She said something along the lines of - “well you might” and “I can’t give any guarantees”.

    I gave her my perspective which was that what I cherished most from our relationship is the intimacy that we share, and that so often she seems to be like a closed book, not wanting to open up to me. She responded “yeah, you want to have this intimate sex life, but then outside the bedroom you are distracted and cold, like I’m the least important person to you. I want to feel like I am the most important person when you are with me”.

    I replied that actually our sex life was a great example of what I was talking about - that she would sometimes open up to me, but then close the door for weeks or months, to which her response was that our sex life and the rest of our life are two sides of the same thing and I can’t treat her coldly or ignore her out of the bedroom and not expect that to impact our sex lives.

    The conversation went on for a couple of hours and covered a lot of ground. At one point F tearfully said “if I meet someone else and we separate I would still love you very much and hope that you met someone who was a better wife”. Genuinely, I couldn’t have a better wife. I frequently tell her how much I love, I don’t seem to show it enough.
    I should emphasise that our discussion wasn’t in the least bit heated. We were laughing at points and tearful too. I hope I have done justice to my wife’s comments and I want to hasten that she is in no way a demanding person or a drama queen. Quite the reverse. She has guy-like levels of chilled out fun, she is kind, funny, very intelligent as well as being very loving. She is also very considered and not at all prone to flying off the handle - so this whole thing came as a massive surprise.

    So this whole episode has been a really big surprise.

    Later on the conversation moved away from these huge topics to family life, schooling and my fitness regime. I asked if we could drop the target of 5k to 3k, and I am really struggling to lose the weight (1k after 2 weeks). She said
    “no, I think we should keep it at 5k, that’s a good target”. I suggested that I should fast for 2-3 days this week as maybe a way of kick start it, and she thought that wasn’t such a great idea - saying I should just focus on strength and endurance and eating healthily and the weight would look after itself. I expressed some skepticism saying words to the effect that “I’m quite motivated to hit my target, I don’t want to take forever over it”.

    F smiled knowingly and just asked “why?”. I said “Well, I want to get fit but there’s also that other thing we talked about” (meaning her seeing Tom) I replied. F smiled broadly and said,
    “yes, it’s a win-win for me isn’t it”.

    The conversation moved on, we finished by kissing, hugging and telling each other we love each other, and I cuddled her to sleep last night.

    This morning we were close again, almost as if nothing has happened.

    So, I’m not quite sure what just happened or where we are.

    1) Clearly I have been massively dropping the ball with F which has left her feeling massively frustrated and resentful.

    2) She has struggled to communicate that to me.

    3) I have been very encouraging towards her as she gets back into work - but clearly that has led her to consider other options (which I don’t regret - her going back to work and being fulfilled in that regard is an unequivocally good thing).

    4) I’m not sure to what extent our FLR style relationship (obviously rather faulty from her perspective) and our occasional talk about others and more recently about Tom has fuelled her frustrations.

    5) it seems that she is both emotionally ready to consider other “plans” that include other partners as well as being very loving towards me, and wanting to improve our relationship.

    My first priority is to heal my relationship with F and safe guard my marriage. I’m not sure I have any other priorities beyond that.

    I don’t know what to make of her “other plans”, about potentially meeting other guys, or if seeing Tom as a “win-win”.

    Maybe she has already met someone and is planning to leave. I told her outright that if she had met someone else she could tell me, that it’s not a bad thing and that we can talk about it. She didn’t directly say she hadn’t, but focused on other stuff about how I treat her.

    It doesn’t really feel like she has met someone else, but then is what she said in the heat of our row about “having other plans” and then again last night when she was talking about the possibility of her meeting someone else.

    I’m not sure where I am with any of this.
    tiruh811 likes this.
  6. Pathedick

    Pathedick Well-Known Member Founding Member

    Your not sure where you are with any of it appears to be an understatement.
    She doesn't act like a "normal" woman but she's still a woman and you don't act like a "normal" man (being submissive and wanting a FLR) but are still a man.

    By that I mean she has obviously, in her mind been sending you subliminal messages for a while (like women do) but you haven't been picking up on them (like most men don't). You can't read her mind nor her unspoken messages, at least not well enough. Now she is speaking loudly if still not clearly, through her words even though they are only hints of the iceberg beneath them.

    The Communication needs to get Deeper and Clearer, Soon. She is definitely thinking about life without You in it beyond being the father of your child, without you as a husband as well as lover. That she made clear. Now you need to find out in Detail why. What is missing from her "model" of the husband she has in her mind. Make it clear that you would like a chance to correct your model but you as much as you want to can't figure out what is needed. Be patient trying to get her to open up about it, in detail.
    Only then can you first decide if you are capable of making the changes and then make them. Does she want a more submissive\subservient husband or a more manly man. And so many other questions like the missing actions and words or the actions or words she wishes would stop.

    Work on that before you can communicate about others in your Relationship because you have to Have a Relationship before there can be others in it.
    don_jetman likes this.
  7. nobody

    nobody Member

    PD, thanks for the advice, with which I agree.

    Like most normal married couples we do have occasional arguments and disagreements, but that was off the scale.

    At the time, and still in retrospect, I am amazed by the intensity of her anger and the strength of her feeling.

    I have been attempting to do exactly as you suggest, and she has opened up somewhat, but apart from a few superficial pointers, I still haven’t got to the bottom of what she wants.

    Thinking about it overnight I don’t think it’s very important whether she has met someone else or not. The key point is whether she wants to have a continued relationship with me or not. If she does, then any other interest is trivial and will eventually wane. If she has checked out already then I am going to really struggle to keep her.

    I cannot convey how stunned I am by all of this.

    A week ago I thought we had a rock solid marriage. It makes me really doubt that I know F or even myself.
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  8. Worth It

    Worth It Well-Known Member

    Do not despair. Sigmund Freud said once to Marie Bonaparte: "The great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer, despite my thirty years of research into the feminine soul, is 'What does a woman want?' ”

    Or perhaps, yes, despair.
    tiruh811 likes this.
  9. Pathedick

    Pathedick Well-Known Member Founding Member

    Remember, Patience.
    In the meantime if you are capable of making the changes that she hinted at then by all means do them. If you can't do them all then do the ones you can and try to talk about the rest after you Show the others.
    tiruh811 likes this.
  10. nobody

    nobody Member

    Thanks PD.

    Things have been hits good since F and I had our long heart to heart on Sunday. We had another chat on Tuesday which wasn’t as long in which I told her how much I love her and that I want F to feel able to come and talk to me about anything that is bothering her - even if she has met someone else - without feeling I will be judgemental or angry.

    Given Ian writing this on a website dedicated to cuckolding, it might sound like I was trying to manipulate her, but that wasn’t how I meant it or said it. Losing F is the absolutely last thing I want.

    She said in reply that she hasn’t met anyone else but couldn’t guarantee that this won’t happen. Last night we were cuddling in bed when she said that she had noticed that I was making a big effort to put her first and be open to her in the way that she had asked.

    We are being intimate and cuddling but it hasn’t gone beyond that yet.

    Nothing she has asked of me seems that big a deal, mainly to make her feel that I am really invested in the moment with her,
    Not distracted and putting family time and time as a couple first.

    I struggle to really believe that is all that is going on - given her ferocity a week ago, which was off the chart of my experience of F over the last 14 years.

    But maybe that IS all this is about. I believe her when she says she hasn’t met anyone else “yet”. She is a terrible liar and wouldn’t even bother to lie anyway.

    It seems ironic that this whole cuckolding fantasy seems based upon first rate communication - something F and I have clearly failed to manage - until we started to talk about her having a boyfriend, when I got hit by an absolute tornado of “communication”.

    Undoubtedly it is better that we are now talking at a much deeper level. I really do adore her and I want to make her happy and see her fulfilled and happy and confident - way more than any fantasy.

    We will see is anything else surfaces as we talk.

    Don said it is good to keep a diary, and this is mine. It has indeed incredibly helpful.
    tiruh811 and don_jetman like this.
  11. Pathedick

    Pathedick Well-Known Member Founding Member

    And maybe you should tell her that. Something like:

    I now realize that though I don't take you for granted I didn't show it near enough so you weren't sure how much you mean to me. In a way that realization is the result of the increase in communication that the talk of the potential of our FLR expanding also into a cuckold relationship. They say that is one of the benefits to a marriage becoming a cuckold marriage, the increase in communication that is required and both the cuckold hubby and his Hotwife understanding how much she means to him.
    I am turned on by you having a relationship with and fucking other Men but I can't imagine Life without you and our relationship.
    So I hope we continue to improve our communication and even if you only want to drop hints about something that you wish I would do, I will be paying attention to you and those hints.

    Any way newbie it sounds like you are making changes so the chance for success is still alive.
    Like "Worth it" name says, it is.
    tiruh811 and don_jetman like this.
  12. nobody

    nobody Member

    Thanks PD, and everyone else.

    I think I am going to follow Don’s example and just let F take the lead, without me steering her.

    Firstly I absolutely want to make sure that our relationship is solid and that she is happy and fulfilled.

    If she then wants to expand her horizons and take a lover, then like Don, I really want that to be her initiative. I don’t want to be leading her or “selling” it. It has to come from her.

    Anyway, many thanks for taking an interest and the time to offer your thoughts.

    I will update if there are any interesting developments.
  13. don_jetman

    don_jetman Well-Known Member Founding Member

    It sounds like you and your wife have some things to work on before considering hotwifing, and honestly, I'd do that work first. I can't emphasize enough how foreign hotwifing/cuckolding is to many women. The wiring is different, and especially at first there can be a lot of suspicion and mistrust. We never know exactly how they'll respond. For some wives it puts a 'dent" in the assumed workings of the marriage. The initial shock can trigger surprising behavior, especially if she isn't willing to be completely honest about her gut feelings. Hell, she may not be able to express a rational response over the noise of the sudden emotional turmoil.

    The thing is, people on a forum never really know you and your wife well enough to predict what the response will be. You've written a good introduction, but even after years of posting, my wife and I are still sometimes misunderstood. Sexual kinks are highly specialized and unique. The slightest omitted detail can misrepresent them. This is a great place to communicate your progress and problems, and for the most part you'll get well-intentioned advice here, but in the end, you have to decide what's best for the health of your marriage.

    As for my advice about "letting her take the lead without steering her", it's a tricky thing. Often it's two steps forward and one back. or even one step forward and two back. For us it was a year or more of me bringing up the fantasy maybe once a month when we made love. A good-natured, sexy suggestion. She had to be sure it got me off, again and again, before she felt completely comfortable enjoying it herself. My agenda was never to actually have it happen with another men, only to see her uninhibited enough to buy into the fantasy and enjoy thinking about other men when we fucked. For me, her comfort and openness to the fantasy was the real key - the real goal. If it had never gone further than that, I'd still be amazed and overjoyed that she got that far. A shared, "taboo" fantasy can be a powerful thing in bed. We still use that - a lot.

    If you never bring it up again, she may never return to it. If you push, she may run from it. It's a delicate balance, one only you have the familiarity and skill to navigate. "Letting her lead" was mostly meant to pertain to later, when she's accepted the idea and may fantasize about it herself. It's about letting her choose the man, the time, and place. It's all about not setting her up or arranging anything yourself behind her back. It's all about refraining from suggesting she fuck someone you fantasize about just to get your jollies. And most of all, it's about finding a sex fantasy you both equally enjoy. Ultimately, in time, you have to decide whether your obsession with the fantasy is worth risking the relationship. There is no "right" answer. Some men can't shake the addiction of the fantasy and risk everything chasing it. Others realize it may not work in their marriage and try their best to sublimate it to maintain the relationship. People do what they feel they "have to", whether it's under the weight of obsession or the obligation of compromise. There shouldn't be any judgement in either case- it's a big, complicated world.

    It's regrettable that things didn't go as planned for you, but your honesty is welcomed and appreciated here. I'd hesitate to suggest a plan of action at this time, other than to be honest and just love her. Best of luck to you both.

    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  14. nobody

    nobody Member

    Great advice Don.

    This last week has really shown me that this fantasy really isn’t as important to me as my marriage - by many orders of magnitude.

    I’m actually totally fine if she never brings it up again - but I have a hunch that she will when she is ready.

    In the meantime I am focused on working on our communication, our closeness and intimacy.
  15. don_jetman

    don_jetman Well-Known Member Founding Member

    That's probably a wise decision. But you have planted the seed - she knows your fantasy. It's not all that unusual for her to become a willing participant in the fantasy once she feels the relationship is secure. I wouldn't give up hope - just proceed with caution based on your experiences. Again, good luck.

    tiruh811 likes this.
  16. nobody

    nobody Member

    Don, thanks for your wise words.

    Strictly speaking this is her fantasy. F does not know that I thought about this sort of stuff for about 15 years before I met her.

    The idea of her having a lover emerged from her own imagination as we progressed into a female led relationship. I just went along with it - making suggestions here and there, and it feels like we have released a tiger into our marriage.

    Last night F and I made love for the first time since we argued and afterwards we lay with my head on her belly as she stroked my hair in silence. I sensed that she was sad and asked her what the matter was, she was evasive and I cuddled her to sleep.

    This morning, as if by some sixth sense, she asked me if I had dreamt during the night. I had and I described the dream to her, which was a conversation between us where, with arms folded, she told me that she had met someone else, that she wishes to pursue a relationship with him and that I need to support that decision and help out by picking up the slack to make her relationship with her new lover a possibility. In the dream F went on to say that we both need to prioritise her new relationship. F smiled as I told her the dream and said - “it’s just like the conversation we had last Sunday (after the massive row). It’s funny because that’s not a million miles from exactly how I feel right now”.

    We were cuddling as we spoke and I asked her if that was why she was sad the previous evening , “because whilst you may not have met some else yet, emotionally you feel ready to meet someone”.

    F didn’t speak but just kissed me, and then a few minutes later guided me to suckle on her nipple whilst stroking my hair as she softly told me that she loves me. Soon she was gently pressing me lower and guided my face between her legs where she was already very aroused.

    So, Don, I think this fantasy of hers/ours definitely has traction.

    I have absolutely no idea where it will go and if our marriage will survive. I really hope we do stay together. I love her to bits - but right now I feel like U am in an out of control roller coaster and I am just holding on for dear life.
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  17. Pathedick

    Pathedick Well-Known Member Founding Member

    Well that is very encouraging. She is responding to your efforts and your submissive nature in your relationship with her. It's reassuring her that you are willing to do what it takes to ensure that she can have a relationship outside of yours. Plus she is responding to your words and dream by asserting herself sexually to pleasure her but to also reassure you and show her love by stroking your hair.

    Keep doing what you are doing, let her lead and you respond submissively and with understanding. Your marriage will continue to strengthen and she will appreciate the Freedom that you are supportively giving her.
    tiruh811 likes this.
  18. nobody

    nobody Member

    Thanks PD,

    I hope you are right. I hope she isn’t sad because she knows in her heart that our marriage is over.
    tiruh811 likes this.
  19. Worth It

    Worth It Well-Known Member

    Most people don't mate for life. There's an old song, "... the strong give up and move on,
    While the weak give up and stay…"
    tiruh811 likes this.
  20. nobody

    nobody Member

    Worth It - you really are a little ray of sunshine aren’t you.
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